I've read a few posts on the lack of availability of site specific frogs, pums especially. Almost all of the pums I work with are very site specific.
Here's an interesting take on why some froggers (who have not "done the math") are not overly concerned with site locals. They think that the lack of genetic material is going to thin the locals to a point to which the line is useless/sterile. B.S. Pure and simple.
Let's do the math. A pum can/should live over ten years. It's offspring can/should also. This is a potential for at least 20 years of a once removed for the wild line of pumilio. Once removed in 20 years. If you know what you are doing, and keep your frogs healthy. Any chance of there being more site specific pumilio from the known local being imported in those 20 years, and thus adding to the genetic mix? I'd say it is a very good chance.
The arguments for not wanting and working with site specific frogs do not add up.
Here's a simple question. Anyone working with and successfully breeding F3's , besides me? Anyone think that it is impossible to go to F3, F4, F5 without degradation genetically to the point of sterility? Because I have bred frogs to F5...
That would mean that at F5, we have a potential for the frogs to be in captivity for 60 years. Longer than I will most likely be in the hobby, and almost absolutely a longer period of time than we should expect more site specific frogs from those locals to be available in our hobby.
The bottom line. If you care about site locals (and everyone should) do something about it. You $$$ spent is your vote , and importer's/exporter's and breeder's incentive.
The math is simple people.

Rich

...and , after understanding that an F1 or F2 frog is a perfectly healthy and viable animal, let's throw another, separate line (collected from the same local, at the same time) WC into the breeding mix with the F1 or F2 (or even the original WC founder) and do some more math...

The problem with all of this is that you seem to be the only person with site specific pumilio. I'm not sure how you're the only one with them and I don't ever seem to see pumilio from your lines available from other froggers. The other problem with waiting on the importations down the line to freshen the gene pool is that since nobody can get site information on these frogs, the only way to responsibly manage them is to separate them from similar frogs from earlier imports. You have always said that you cannot determine a pumilio morph by looking at it so without more information on our animals your plan cannot work. Until something major is done to the importation process and collection of animals nothing is going to change.

If you read my OP you will note I use the logic that it is inevitable that more site local data pumilio will come in. I site some importations by Marcus @ SNDF as quick proof. I am not the only one with site data pums. I just seem the have the largest collection. And am determined to only work with site local pums.


There are actually quite a few people working with my pums. I have bred a decent number over the years. Most of the ones I bred at the beginning went to very experienced froggers with whom I had confidence in their abilities to also breed the frogs. Many of these people simply do not post on the hottest most traveled web forums. Simply ask and I'm sure you can find my lines out there.
I happen to be fortunate to work with site local frogs due to an import from MSU. After the study was finished I took possession of a decent number of pumilio. I also have a few frogs from the Marcus import I mentioned also.


Once again, see my reference to Marcus and his ease of bringing in all the site local data pums he chose to. 'We' simply as a hobby are lazy and too cheap to pay a few extra bucks for pedigreed frogs which we can manage for decades. It is easily done, but apparently not easily enough for our hobby...
Very sad when you think about it. I'm sure there will be more imports in the future. Probably after all the 'best guess' pums have been killed because they go to ' WOW Mommy, I want the cheap, cheap, pretty froggie, and I want it NOW!" in the hobby.
Vote with your dollars and don't buy 'best guess' anything period. There are alternatives. As noted.
Oh, and for those who suppose that reintroduction is an impossibility, please tell me how all those auratus got onto an Hawaiian island and an island in the Caribbean they are not indigenous to...hmmmmm...

Rich

I understand that Marcus is importing what he believes to be site specific animals, but who is his man in the field verifying the locations the frogs are tagged with? It's pretty easy to say a frog is from "x" just because it was collected near that town. That doesn't mean that the frog that came in with the locality of "x" is actually from the same population or just another population on the other side of town also being dubbed "x". I think until there is a dedicated person in the field to verify these localities we're still gonna be stuck with the same situation whether they come in with locality info or not.

Also want to note that I have seen animals from your lines available a few times, but after all these years it would seem that they should be more commonly available than they are. Even on the big evil board.

Well, let's put it this way. The guy selling those frogs knows exactly where they come from. Exactly. So much so that I have no problem working with a couple of his morphs.



You seem to think I have a pum factory in my house. I have bred a decent amount, but let's put it this way. Out of the thousands , and thousands of pums that have come in in the last few years, how many times do you personally see F2's for sale? Go to your big ol' Board and point out one single add right now for F2's. Please. After not finding F2's , count how many CB pums at all are listed, then count all the other adds for frogs. Pumilio are probaly the dart imported in the last few years in the largest numbers (accepting possibly auaratus) , but are one of the least offered as CBs. Why? Pumilio are not as easy as you may think to breed in numbers. So why no invest in the quality ones?

Rich

Oh, BTW , I have CB pums for sale right now. Shipping when the temps get better.

I hope that this is true. What is his method for knowing these exact locales?





I don't know why you're under the assumption that I believe you have a factory. I just know that you have produced a good amount of animals and distributed them to hobbyist that are more than capable of producing healthy offspring. Given that alone it would be fair to say that they should be seen more often than they are. Trying to compare pumilio offered against other darts in the hobby is comparing apples to oranges. Quite frankly there are just far more of the others that have been bred successfully for a far longer amount of time by far more people. Go back 10 years ago and tell me how many cb pumilio you saw compared to now. As we learn more about these animals we are able to have more success and numbers will continue to rise.

This still has gone off topic from the original point on site specific animals. You are responding like I disagree with the need for these animals when that couldn't be further from the truth. I am just very skeptical of the shadiness that exporters seem to operate by in telling us what we want to hear instead of the truth.

Do you think with the way I stated it, I doubt it at all?



I'm not going to go into exactly how he knows, but he knows. Believe me. If you would like to go into it further , PM me and I'll go into details.
Does anybody out there still think there are actually pumilio "farms" in Panama???







By that assumption , there should be tons more pumilio offered by tons more people. Period. How many pumilio do you suppose I produce in one year?
Again, they are out there, just not offered like the flashy newest this or that on the flashiest Board for chat.
One reason may be that people who get them breeding actually hold back offspring instead of selling them as fast as they are produced. You will note that I am producing Robalo pumilio, and have for almost two years. See any adds for Robalo pums by myself , or anyone else?


Not apples to oranges at all. Ten years? No problem. Ever heard of Blue Jeans? Bri Bris? Grannies? Black Jeans? All of these were readily , cheaply available before way, way before, many of the morphs you see for sale at this moment. And people bred them. The simple fact is that pumilio, and eggfeeders in general, do not produce large numbers of offspring. Period.


I'm not acting like anything. I am simply addressing your points . And I appreciate your interest.
I too am skeptical of shady importers . And I too think there are many who not only do not know where their stuff came from, but are willing to spin it to make a quick buck at the expense of our hobby. But, when I say that I know where such and such is from and that I have site local data, believe me. I'm not one of the shady guys...
PM if you like.

Rich

These frogs were not bred in any sustainable numbers. Yes WC animals were available in large numbers, but CB were not in any way. I used to see blue jeans available from wholesalers for $10-15 back then. Fact of the matter is that husbandry practices and the condition of the animals coming in back then was lacking. I'm sure that there were a few that were successful back then. Taking into account the relative rarity of these animals now, they clearly weren't bred enough successfully.

I'm about to head to bed, but I'll pm you in a day or two to talk about the other stuff. Hopefully some others will chime in on the conversation too.